Ruby Duncan is the Chair of Mission Council (the board of our missionary agency, Arotahi). She is heading up the search process for the next National Leader of the Baptist Churches of New Zealand. Ruby joins the Chair Chats podcast to share how the search is going. This article is an adapted transcript from her conversation with our Communications Director, Mike Crudge. Listen to the update here.
Why were you chosen to be the convener of this process?
It's interesting because when I took on the Chair of Missions Council, I didn't realise that would also put me on the National Council. So, I have also been part of the National Council for a couple of years. Some of the things people have said to me are that I bring such a wide background of experience.
I've been in the Baptist movement for 50 years, but in so many different parts: Mick and I have been involved in various local churches…but we've also been on missions. We've been overseas, supported by Baptist churches. I have been in leadership for a Baptist social service, so I've done a lot of HR, a lot of interviewing, and I am fascinated by the process of this kind of thing; how do you get the right person in the right place at the right time?
And I'm very keen on good processes that are very honouring to people and inclusive of us all. So, I think those things were recognised. Rod tapped me on the shoulder, and the National Council asked me to do this job.
Who is on the search team?
We wanted to have a broad representation. Although the team is clear that they are also very much themselves, they can't speak for all the people they might appear to represent. But we've got a great team.
We've got Rangiaruaru Hema from Te Whāriki. We've got Daniel Choi, a Chinese pastor at Epsom Baptist Church. Arnie Hall is the pastor of Nelson Baptist Church and is well known in the movement. He was on the last search committee, which is really helpful. Sarah Beisley has been in leadership with Loyal Workshop overseas and is now on the National Council. Eduardo Mendonca is a Brazilian pastor at New Generation Church in Christchurch and on the Missions Council. And then Elliot Rice, a pastor at Wellington Central Baptist Church. These people all represent different spaces in the Baptist Union; lots of local church background, mission background, various ages, cultures, and genders. So, it's been a robust group.
Now, I will acknowledge that we don't have a representative of every sector. We don't have someone specifically from youth, for example. But we are very conscious of those groups. But yeah, it's been a very robust and honest group. People have shared their thoughts very openly, and we've wrestled together. It's been a great time.
Another thing I want to say about myself is that I love a good meeting. A meeting where everybody gets to say what they think. That has been at the heart of developing a robust search team, where it's not about me. I can influence people, I know, but I want to really hear what they think. And that's how we discern the mind of Christ together.
It hasn't been easy, but we have enjoyed interacting together from across the motu. We're all from different spaces. At one point, we talked with Rangi, and he was like, What's a tikanga process we can build here? We're all part of a little WhatsApp group. He said, as Māori, we would go up the mountain. There's that sense of being closer to heaven, that sense of seeking the mind of Christ. He said, We will go up the mountain together. We said, Well, we're all over the country, so we can't go up the same mountain, but we could go up a mountain at the same time. So, we all agreed that at two o'clock on a Sunday afternoon, we'd go up a mountain and pray. We all sent pictures of where we were, what the Lord was saying, and what we were sensing. It was a really special moment. So yeah, we've had some special moments together.
What have you been looking for in the next National Leader?
It's important that this question was asked before we gathered. So, the National Council and Missions Council gathered and discussed what we are looking for. Various groups have talked about what they are looking for. So, there was a consultation paper. The National Council asked for someone to talk to various groups and gather all the thoughts. It was pretty consistent with what we were looking for.
In any recruitment process, I always say you're looking for character, of course, especially in this role; people of high character. You're looking for competency. Now, when I talk about competency for this kind of role, I talk about level four leadership. So, people can be one-on-one leaders. They can be an amazing brain surgeon, and they change our lives with their great brain surgery. That's level one leadership.
Then, there are level two people who run teams, level three people who manage others who do on-the-ground work, and they must create the environment around it. This is level four: people who can operate well on the ground, operate well as a team leader, operate well thinking about the whole environment that we need to create for safety and thriving, but also think big picture and strategic for the 10 years ahead. That's level four leadership.
Then there's the specifics of that. So, you can read the job description, but I'm going to pick out four things that I would highlight as things we were looking for.
We're a movement, not an organisation. So yes, we have to operate organisationally. We have to operate within the law, and there's a lot of stuff we need, policies and procedures. But essentially, we're a movement. That takes a unique leadership style. We're looking for someone with proven experience operating in that space where leadership is not about power or status. It's a position of influence rather than power. There's a lot of push and pull in this role. If people don't trust you, if people aren't inspired by you, they can ignore you. So that's a unique kind of leadership style, and it's hard. It's a tough space, and leaders have found it a tough space. So, we need someone resilient to be able to do that.
Then there's this thing about change management. Now, we do need change. Every organisation needs change. Every movement needs change, especially because we want to be responsive to what God is doing now and in the future. But good change management says, what do we need to keep? What must we hold on to? So, we're looking for people who can say, these are things we must never let go of. These are at our core. This is our identity. What do we keep? What do we need to chuck? What does not serve us any longer? They have the confidence and the boldness to work with us to say, hey, something here does need to go. And then, what needs changing; not chucking out, but just adapting and changing. So, we're looking for people who can demonstrate they've been able to do those three things well and bring people with them, creating harmony around the process of change.
Third thing, we are looking for someone who's committed to our bicultural relationships. This is very important to us. It has been for many years. We have not necessarily done it well. We have had missteps. It's a learning journey. It's not easy. It's challenging. But we are so enriched by that journey, all of us. And so, we want someone absolutely committed to staying on that journey and making progress with that bicultural relationship.
And lastly, there is the complexity of the organism. Can this person cope with multiple channels at the same time? It's kind of the level four leadership, but we have a lot of intercultural, theological, sociological…I was listening to someone recently, they were saying there's more difference between generations now than there is across one generation around the world. Those stresses and strains intergenerationally and interculturally create a very complex environment. So, we're looking for people who can demonstrate they can manage that sort of stuff.
But, they will not be Jesus. They will not be everything. They will not be able to bring all the things that we might love. And so, are they also someone who will gather a team around them, who knows what they're not good at, who knows where they might misstep? And so, they need others to strengthen and complement what they might bring. They've got to be a really strong team player. I'd say those are our top things that we've been looking for.
How's it going at this stage?
The good and the bad is that we've had a strong list of candidates. We have been very much encouraged by the number of people who have put themselves forward to sense whether God is calling them into this space. That created a bit of a dilemma for us, and it was going to take a lot more time than we might hope.
We did have a two-step process. We had some initial interviews to fine-tune it down to a shortlist of about three. So, we did that. We got our shortlist, and the candidates have been through an intensive interview process. After much discussion and consultation, we have reached a point of having a name we will put forward to the National Council this Saturday (2 August, 2025). That was our time frame. If we didn't reach it and weren't confident at this point, we would be honest about that. We're not just saying, well, we better grab somebody. We feel confident that we have discerned who we believe is the right person for the next stage of our movement.
What will happen next?
If the National Council agrees that this candidate seems right to them, other groups also need to be part of the key discernment and agreement. Missions Council is one, and the Missions Council meet at the end of next week. So, we'll be talking about that then. There are other key bodies, of course…People from Carey Baptist College, the staff who work closely with this person, and leadership in our Regional Associations. These are all people who need to be consulted.
Then there's the question of how we process this with the wider movement. We have a unique process where we ultimately vote at the Baptist National Hui. A whole lot of people get to vote, but they need to know what they're voting for. They need to know who this person is, what they would bring, strengths, weaknesses, whatever it is. We are looking at how we roll that out around the country and give people a good opportunity to hear from this person, interact with them, ask their questions, and talk about what's important to them.
Many things have been discussed and suggested, whether we do the roadshow or webinars. Potentially a bit of both because, if we do a roadshow, not everybody can get to those. I think there is a thirst and hunger for communication more than ever before, and we understand that. It's multi-channel and it's multi-directional. Yet, people don't engage with all the channels. We know that it's not easy. We want to communicate well in various ways with the movement so that they can feel engaged when we come to a final, I hope, more like a sense of affirmation at Hui; that there is a sense of real support.
The National Leader role is a role of mana, of influence, and trust. It's very important that this person has a real sense that the movement is with them and will work with them. So that's what we're aiming for.
We really appreciate the people who have communicated with us to share thoughts and ideas. We need that, and we like the feedback. So, keep feeding back to us, letting us know, giving us ideas so that we can be responsive to those. People have had some great radical ideas. We may not be able to pull them all off, but hey, they're really worth thinking about. Thank you very much to all of those who've engaged with this process this far.
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Photo: Chair Chats podcast cover artwork with cropped image of Ruby Duncan from https://rubyduncan.com/blogs/news/welcome.
